In this first episode, we'll be exploring the role of data-driven destinations, and trying to understand how we actually get a different dynamic into our teams about how we approach the role of data in informing the decisions that we have to take.
We're very excited to share the first episode of Leading Tourism's Transition, our new podcast series. In this first episode, we'll be exploring the role of data-driven destinations with Birka Valentin and Anna Scuttari, two experts in the industry. Below you can find the whole transcription of this episode.
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Welcome to Leading Tourism's Transition, a podcast series by the Digital Tourism Think Tank. In this podcast, we aim to go underneath the skin of some of the most critical issues facing our industry as we explore what they mean for destinations through the lens and perspective that experts can bring to the table.
Unlike most of the other things we do at the Digital Tourism Think Tank, we are taking an expert view on this that doesn't come from destinations first, but actually comes from the role of consultants, experts, and the academic sector to try and understand what is some of the research and best practice that sits behind some of the most interesting examples of transformation that we are seeing today.
In this first series, we have got together with Birka Valentine, someone who is very respected and widely known across the industry, who's helping us to understand a little bit the questions and perhaps some of the opportunities that exist around how we might leverage the potential of data.
In starting to realise the opportunity to become data-driven in how we address sustainability in this series, together with Birka, we've selected a range of guests who are gonna help to provide a wide range of perspectives that start to unpackage and uncover some of the key issues at play.
In this first episode, we'll be exploring the role of data-driven destinations, and we'll be looking at processes and development and trying to understand how we actually get a different dynamic into our teams about how we approach the role of data in informing the decisions that we have to take but also setting up the right structure, processes and framework that are gonna define our ability to take advantage of the new opportunities that sit behind a sustainable transformation of our sector.
In episode two, we'll be sitting down and exploring how to select the right data, and importantly, how we make sure that we make the right choices when it comes to data, so that we don't run after everything, but we narrow down to exactly the data that's going to help provide the answers where we have questions. And in the third episode, we will be looking at how to invest in our own capabilities.
What are the skills, capabilities, and talents that we need to bring into the sector, or perhaps that we need to retain and keep?
How do we nurture and develop those so that being data-driven isn't just a buzzword, but it's actually something that we have truly invested in, that we have a strong sense of vision, a long-term view on, and we can really start to execute some of those big ideas that we often explore, but rarely have the opportunity to really see play out.
Today's episode starts off with a sit-down chat with Anna Scuttari, and she has brought her expertise to the table to start to share with us a wide range of perspectives on what it means to become data-driven as a destination.
Thank you for inviting me the both of you. I'm really pleased to be here. I'm a professor of Empirical Research at the University of Applied Sciences of Munich. At the same time, I'm also working at a research institute called URAC Research, and I mentioned it because there I'm leading an observatory for sustainable tourism - what we are interested in today.
So we try to measure the impact of tourism at a regional level in a small region in Italy, and we are basically trying also to understand which kind of transformation can be generated by this data collection and monitoring changes actually.
Great. Now, Birka, before we jump into this discussion, we've got three excellent guests lined up. Anna was the first. Maybe give us a little sense of what we can expect over the series and in particular why you thought Anna would be a great person to help set the scene in this first episode.
Yeah, thanks, Nick. Hi Anna and thanks so much Nick for bringing this together. I think it's a really interesting and evolving and dynamic topic, right? The intersection of data and sustainability. And when we're thinking about the content of those few episodes that we wanted to bring in here, I think what was really driving the thinking was that it would be really nice to have a bit of a mix in terms of regional perspectives.
So we will have Anna today, which is more of a European, and specifically, especially a mountain region perspective, as well as the destination itself. Then we will have someone from Mexico in the next episode that will help us to understand a bit more the technical details and the data sources and everything.
But today we're talking about more the processes of developing a strategy and really becoming a data-driven destination. And then in the last episode, we are having someone from Canada, a very different type of destination to talk about really the human resource aspect of all of that and the talent aspect and what that means and what we need and, and where we stand.
So we thought that's a really nice mix. And I'm happy we can start today with Anna and the experience from her destination work and all the expertise, because I know there's a lot of experience and perspective there to be shared.
Great and absolutely what a holistic kind of view on this really important topic we are gonna be treated to over these different episodes.
So starting out with yourself, Anna, tell us about how you've seen things evolve and today, what does it mean to be a data-driven destination? It's something that we have heard this term thrown around quite a lot. And of course, we have these conversations in the context of how to apply data together with our sustainability goals and intentions. But of course, things are having to evolve and we have to see that move forward. So what does that mean for today's destinations?
Yeah, actually what I think is that a lot of destinations have been driven by data for more than 20 years. But the point is, which kind of data? So in the first 2000s, the data they were driven by was basically the traditional statistics of tourism. How many people get in arrivals, overnights, the average length of stay and the occupancy rate of hotels and similar accommodation facilities nowadays?
Well, I tried to guess that they were driven by an objective to grow and grow more so and attract more people. When I was a graduate student, the most important topic we were talking about was basically attractively and how to increase the brand of the image and the brand of the destination.
Nowadays, we don't talk that much anymore about how to attract people. We talk about how to manage those flows and how to keep a balance between local inhabitants, tourists and the use of resources and the cost of resources.
Of course over the last few months, I would say more than ever. That's why, even if, similarly to the past, we are still data-driven. We are driven by different kinds of data and this data is not collected in a standardised way. And that's the main weak point, in my opinion, because official statistics are not able to provide destinations with this kind of evidence. That's why basically destinations keep using the old type of data, but they would need other kinds of data.
For instance, they would need to know the CO2 emissions per capita of tourists. They would need to know which kind of target groups they had to address if they only knew which of them is consuming in a more efficient manner.
And this data pool is basically not available on a standard level. That's why we're still at the beginning of this path. We are not able to provide standards worldwide, but we're still collecting wonderful experiences on the way and we are trying to respond to the very punctual and specific needs of the different stakeholders, which makes the thing a little bit less efficient, a little bit more experimental, but still, I think it's necessary because we haven't developed yet the standards we would need yet.
So that really helps us kind of get that context of where data is, not perhaps something new for destinations, but something that is today presenting quite a lot of new challenges for them towards also define how they organise and work with data, where they identify it and how they incorporate that. As you said, some experimental approaches are required to sort of try to understand that better.
Birka, you've worked with so many destinations and data sharing has been central to that work that you've done with destinations. What have you seen when you take that snapshot of a wide range of destinations collaborating and setting out a clear intent to work with data? What does the reality look like?
Yeah, I think there has been tremendous change in the last 10, 15 years obviously from the time I've been in the area and in this specific space really between sustainability and data. We've seen increasing awareness and knowledge about this topic.
It has entirely changed in terms of what we see more and more, you know, that kind of soft indicators for conferences on policy papers and policies themselves and discussions that the topic of monitoring is now not something that comes up as a surprise.
It's definitely there and it always comes up. I think Covid helped certainly to raise, even more, higher awareness of the importance of data and having better evidence to take more responsible decisions.
So that change itself I think is very clear. I can just support what Anna was saying. Obviously, we are very used to focusing now on the traditional kind of perspective of growth of marketing, and I think probably shouldn't be out of our system, but it's still in many destinations.
It is difficult to argue why resources should go into certain activities for data monitoring, where you don't really have a direct business case, right? So that's still a big challenge in many cases.
So when you look around, I guess, the world in many destinations, we also like to have a common kind of explanation and pattern for us, when we look at destinations, but they're so different in their context and their needs and their basis and their foundation of what they have and what kind of information they have.
That is almost obviously impossible to be able to get to a level where all of the destinations are on at this kind of the same level of development. What kind of insights do they have? I don't think that needs to be what we see right now. I mean, we'll have it for many more years to come. And some are much more or further down the road, let's say, in terms of being able to try out more data sources to add more to the traditional ones to build their own systems, to keep continuity and their approaches, and not just ad hoc projects, for example.
There's a political level that plays into this in terms of what support is there and for how long. So there's just a lot of variety in terms of where destinations stand. But what is certain is that we are talking about a topic that all of the destinations know by now, and that has really changed many years ago.
So tourism data has in fact been very standardised for many years. When we talk about tourism statistics, we talk about the same numbers across all destinations. And of course, that has also come under a lot of criticism. So when we talk about tourism statistics, we also criticise that we measure our KPIs by bed nights and growth.
And today, when we think about some of the issues that we see stemming out of tourism, in fact, those numbers are not always helpful. But, Anna, you mentioned, things like the emissions targets that we set as an industry now requiring new sets of data, and here perhaps globally, there is actually standardisation and there are ISOs, which help us to create the right governance models.
When we look across the tourism industry in a wide range of destinations that exist, it seems there's very little standardisation or interoperability of data. What do you see as the models today that are starting to be built, how destinations are approaching this and whether we perhaps are moving towards some sense of consistency or in fact, is that something we are far from?
Well, actually I believe that's something we are far away from. There are some destinations that are kind of pioneers and they're working out their own methodology. For instance, I know about Visit Norway having a very precise estimation of CO2 emissions related to tourism and the transport sector. There is good work also in the Netherlands.
We have tried to start an estimation, but I think there's a double problem with this. Because you have, on the one hand, the calculation of the CO2 emissions, that's quite complex, direct, indirect, what, what do you calculate? And so on. And, the other side of the coin is how to break it down to tourism.
In general, that's a well-known formula, but when it comes to calculating the added value by tourism or for tourism, then, the first difficulties start because everybody is interpreting the indirect economic effects and the induced effect in a different way, it depends on the region, as Birka said, it depends on the kind of activity, on the participation of locals.
That's the same for CO2 emissions. If we consider, mountain regions like ours, we have the possibility to estimate the CO2 emissions of hotels. Maybe that will be a very or quite standardised way of doing it. We might collect quite precise data about the car fleet and how much CO2 emissions are related to car transport and so on.
But then when it comes to activities, for instance, skiing, which is one of the main activities in the winter in our region, we start having difficulties in understanding how much of these emissions or how much of these impact is produced by locals that are going to ski over the weekend and how much is related to tourists.
The same goes for museums and other facilities. So I think there's a lot of goodwill, but we're not reaching the standards yet. The interesting fact is that the tourism sector is trying to do its own tiny calculation. And that's good exercise. And on the other hand, at a regional or national level, they are trying to make a top-down calculation, which is good.
For instance, in our region, we tried to estimate the CO2 emissions of transport and we got to a number, but we couldn't really be extremely sure that it was very precise. We were very happy when we noticed that there was another calculation, including the entire emissions of all sectors in our region. And then they broke it down and tried to estimate the one of tourism and we were getting similar figures. That's why I think it's so important to have this kind of triangulation of results at this moment.
So we don't need to have standards yet. We need to have people with goodwill and good knowledge of data management and maybe methods that we should try to triangulate before we decide which is the best one.
So that's a really great kind of point there that it's perhaps just too early to be able to do that, but we need to be able to put everything out on the table. I love the term triangulate because I think it really kind speaks to that need to examine, compare, challenge and really try to narrow down to accurate sets of data that we can rely on, and that we don't overlap, we don't overestimate, we don't try to perhaps falsify results that might lead to a more positive outcome.
And that we are really doing this with the best intentions to get an accurate measurement of the impact that we have as an industry and how that sits alongside all of the other activities.
When you talk about the local skiing, there's even this grey question: is this tourism? Where does tourism start and stop? What is the difference between, say, the tourism economy and the visitor economy? And so there's a lot of greys that sits up between us and the industry, we need to work that out in order to be able to get some sense of accuracy. Birka, you've seen a lot of this kind of thinking process going on. How do you see those development stages in the destinations that you've worked with?
Yeah, I think the very interesting thing here is just on that example, what Anna mentioned with the emissions, how complicated that is just for one or two indicators, right? And then we're talking about a list of indicators for destinations.
Even when we look at the certification lists, for example, you know, sometimes 30 or more indicators that destinations need to need to generate information for. When we talk about building a data model for all of the insights, a holistic one for the destination, I think it becomes a really good example of how complex that can get, and it gives the answer a bit as well, why we are not as further advanced than we are at this moment of time. Because it is so complex.
And I do think we have to remember many times the realities, and you see that in destinations over and over again and that's just how it is. There are those advances that are needed and for certain indicators, you know, successes being made, and then maybe there is a shift in leadership or shift and support.
Then there are a few years where there's almost no advancement coming in. Where maybe then if another momentum is being created over time, it is really difficult to know what happened then before.
I guess to this continuity, to building a whole kind of data infrastructure and data model for a destination and an indicator set, advancing that to that extent, that we feel very comfortable in all of those levels.
It's just an enormously complex task to do. And so what we see in destinations is that in certain areas there's advancement, in others there's not so much, and it is also the reason why I guess the third-party providers of data are so attractive, obviously.
That is because if there's data that can be bought and where the answers are coming without the destination, having to go through the process of what the methodology is because that's also kind of a development process in terms of not only getting into the nitty-gritty of the technical methodology but also in terms of what is our position on certain things and where do we take decisions and what direction, right?
That's quite a complex task in itself as well. So that's why I think for certain indicators where we have information that is relatively easily available through third-party sources or external partners, it's very understandable that those are so attractive as they are today. And that if there's a possibility to avoid this entire process of developing methodologies - certain destinations don't have the resources to avoid that process.
Yeah. You mentioned a few things there. Resources, you also talked about, the need to identify the right data and be able to work with that. And Anna, you spoke especially about the capabilities and the knowledge needed to do that.
If we think about just the technical aspects, we need to be able to build the right technology architecture to be able to record and then later benchmark and analyse, that very foundational data that we need to begin with.
But if we also think about the realities in the juxtaposition of that, we have, an industry that's made up of hundreds, well, thousands of SMEs, most don't have time to do even the most basic things they need for their business, such as the day-to-day marketing. So this is already a challenge.
So recording and finding those data points within their business, and then recording and reporting on those, which is, of course, essential for the whole industry to get a clearer picture seems a huge challenge.
On the other hand, when you talk about resources, they are stretched. We have many destinations better funded than others. So how do we need to work closer together? Do we need to really align much better? What about things like open data, for example, where perhaps there's an opportunity to also create standards so that, a governor's model can be created through data that everybody at their own pace and time can come on board with some sense of standardisation? So a few questions there, but I would be very curious to hear what your thoughts are on those.
Yeah, the open data one got me right away, and I know you have experience with that one as well. Maybe you wanna share your experience with the open data front first.
What I think is the discussion around open data goes along for a couple of years now, but still, I would argue, it's nice to have. I totally agree that we need to improve the accessibility of data and the standards of creating databases and sharing them.
All the discussion around fair data from the European Union is also a very important one. Nowadays, you're supposed as a researcher, not to just publish your results, but also to publish your data sets, which is wonderful in the end, because you enable other people to work with your data. I think it's the way knowledge should be built. I mean, that's a good trend and I totally support it.
On the other hand, I mean, I think we have still in our observatory, which is a very small one with just 30 indicators, as Birka said, and a couple of people working on it.
I still believe that we generate those indicators every year and with a time series of 10 years. So not a huge amount of data, but when we present that to stakeholders, they're overwhelmed by this data overload. And that's why, I mean, open data is good for scientists and for the specialists that would like to cope with to further develop data analysis. But I think those institutions, universities or even research centres that would like to address policy makers, well they, of course, can rely on open data, but they should really pack the data in a way that they're able to generate narratives through data.
And I mean, we've discussed a lot and it's not so easy to decide where to cut the line between science and policy. And that's exactly the difficult thing, because if you provide stakeholders with 30 indicators and a trend of 10 years without giving them any key message, and by explaining to them how you were calculating them, of course, it's okay to have metadata to explain how the procedure is and so on.
They will maybe follow you for the first half an hour and then maybe you will lose that completely. So the thing is how to pack your own, how to produce narratives from your own data in order to also be able to initiate a transformation. I think this is as much important as the discussion around open data, so should be transparent.
It's also a good exercise for us as researchers and academics to publish our data sets because then you really have to accomplish all standards, they don't have to be understood just for you. They need to be understandable for everybody, which is a good objective because then I have to be very clear in the structure of my data.
But on the other hand, only a few people will access and will use those raw data. So I have to also take responsibility, and it's also an ethical responsibility, I think to produce a result that is understandable for the majority of the citizens of a region. And we tried it out by creating a video of our report. We have a huge report with 120 pages. And every time we prepare it, we say, well, next year it'll be shorter, but then every time we deal with those 30 indicators, we start creating graphs and so on. And, of course, diagrams take place, the text takes place, you need to explain the methodology and blah, blah, blah. And then you have these 120 pages. Then we tried to make a video for one and a half minutes, and it was such a wonderful exercise for us. So I think we should work on both sides.
So communication and narrative are absolutely key to making that translate for the audience that you need to be listening, that you need to be acting, and to be able to break that down in a way that it's accessible for that audience.
Yeah. Because they're not at that level, it's boring to talk for hours and hours about indicators. So we need to make it really interesting and just sharing the database is, I think, not enough to attract those stakeholders that then should act. So I don't wanna judge the level of comprehension. It's not a matter of understanding. They do understand, but it's extremely boring if you are not able to express it in a way that it's forced change.
I'm so glad you made that kind of precision there because it's absolutely about engaging, inspiring and encouraging people to get excited about it. So the other side of that is the opening that up and being transparent and the responsibility that goes with that, which I think is really something that we can actually really try to aim for much, much more across, uh, all of the work we do. Birka what's your perspective on this?
I can only strengthen Anna's side. I think it's an important educational piece for both sides. I think within the destinations as well, just that stakeholders also get used to going back to data, destinations see it and use it. That is something we are not used to in the past, right? So that's also kind of a transformation process that we need to foster and support within the destinations.
Leading by example, making as much, publicly or transparently available, and being able to tell that story in an attractive way. That is a really important piece towards then all the stakeholders once this is done. On the open data side, just one thought on that one as well, because, in several destinations, there's also of course, always the big hope that already existing open data within the destination, for example, from the Ministry of environment or from some other governmental source or even in other open sources, right?
There's data available that can be used relatively easily. Most of the cases are just from experience that depends on the destination of course, but in many cases, that's not always as easy as initially thought.
In many of the destinations where I've been engaged, there was always this process at the beginning of looking at what's available internally, obviously, but then externally, what are some of those open data sources that we could use for some of our insights that we need, and what quality do they have?
And many times is the realisation that the quality is not good enough because it's not provided in a continuous manner, or the format is not in a way that can be used or there's no access to the actual platform and its own old platform.
So there's a really important piece as well in terms of working or building good relationships with those types of entities that have that. That kind of open data landscape that is available, may be improved in the future. It's a bit of a long shot, many times because you never know if they're actually moving right towards the same goals and if there is a priority on that side.
But I think it's a very important point that I've seen in destinations where, if we want to improve really overall the availability of data, then relationships with those entities are really important, at least to talk about it and to make the case why tourism is reliant on that type of information, why it's important for the sector, right?
So yeah, we need to be able to map out the public, the private, the user data, and also be able to evaluate the quality, the accessibility of that data, and really make that assessment about what role it can play in our long term approach to building the infrastructure that we also hope to be able to rely on.
So perhaps closing off today's discussion, a really open question really, which is, to both of you, what are the biggest challenges that you have witnessed amongst destinations that are perhaps holding them back from being able to go further in becoming more data-driven and setting up the right model and the right infrastructure that can sit behind this quite transformative process that we're seeing in tourism right now?
Yeah, I can go with two thoughts first. One I think that I've seen, and almost all of the destinations is the overwhelming feeling at the beginning of this huge mountain to climb, those many different insights to be looked at potentially, the many different approaches to be taken, the kind of homework that needs to be done, like the kind of mapping out of data that is there, the strategic decision of what should we tackle first?
What are the low-hanging fruits? What are the not-so-low-hanging fruit, but of strategic importance, how to allocate resources, who to get as a partner, where to find the technical knowledge, all of that? This is just very overwhelming - as a starting point I think is always one of the first, first things that come up.
Besides the technical part as well as deciding terms of do we want to build this internally. Do we want to build this with a partner externally? Do we just kind of want to buy in data? How do we ensure continuity? And should we build technical knowledge and analytical knowledge internally as well? And if so, how to do that? I think those are two of the things that I've seen over and over again. And there are a lot of pros and cons for all of those sites, right? So that requires quite a process in that sense.
Yeah. How about from the work that you've been doing, Anna? What do you see as the biggest challenges?
Well, I would say the big challenge for us at the moment is to be able to ensure, as Birka said, continuity, to ensure this long-term monitoring. And at the same time, not get into the routine of having every year the same indicator with another figure on the next year. And I don't wanna say get bored in that activity, but, maybe have the risk, not to be able to quickly react on possible new patterns of transformation that are different from the indicators that we monitor since, I don't know, 1976.
So I'm struggling a bit in the observatory we are leading because on the one hand we would like to keep this database and we would like, or we see the value of a regular monitoring.
On the other hand, we have the feeling that it won't be useful for policy makers unless it's very close to the everyday problems of the industry. And of course, if we just choose indicators that are close to the everyday problems of the industry, then we would lose this long-term perspective.
So I think there should be a compromise in between and we should accept, as the very first book that was published on monitoring and tourism, a book by Graham Miller and a colleague of him, indicators should be not cut in stone and we should be flexible enough to keep those indicators that still tell us a story, tell us as a how things are going.
But on the other hand, we should be brave enough to dedicate our energies to new challenges in the industry. Otherwise, there is a kind of mismatch between monitoring and urgency of the policy destination decisions. And then, the credibility of the monitoring activity kind of decreases. And it's quite difficult. This interface between data production and data consumption is quite challenging for us at the moment.
I think those are very thoughtful words to end on. They leave us with quite a lot to consider. And that sense of finding compromise and balance is really key message. I think that sometimes we perhaps don't really accept or don't really consider. But I think you said it beautifully, it leaves us with something to think about.
And just want to say a huge thanks to both yourself, Anna and Birka for this first episode, which I really think helps set the scene when we talk about data-driven transformation. What are some of the big challenges that actually perhaps get in the way of that ideal that we kind of look towards, but perhaps need us to consider the real kind of detailed challenges which find their way into that vision? And some really great thoughts there to set it up.
Well, I hope you enjoyed this episode of Leading Tourism's Transition. I know that it certainly has been very interesting from where I'm standing. Anna Scutari gave us a really excellent analysis of how destinations can seize those opportunities by being more data-driven. And of course, thank you to Birka for this excellent navigation of some of these complex issues, where as always, she's able to provide a huge amount of perspective.
So if you are looking at where you can get the next episode, don't worry, subscribe to the series and make sure you get this wherever you get your podcasts.
Next week we will be joined by Arturo Constantini from Brain Analytics, who's gonna help us unpackage the idea around what it means to build the right data within your processes. The question we will be asking is how do we select the right data and the right content that helps us to move to the next level so we don't just make a commitment to being data-driven, but we start to organise everything that exists in that data lake. We hope to see you then. Have a great week.
Digital Tourism Think Tank
Independent Expert
University of Applied Sciences of Munich
We're very excited to share the first episode of Leading Tourism's Transition, our new podcast series. In this first episode, we'll be exploring the role of data-driven destinations with Birka Valentin and Anna Scuttari, two experts in the industry. Below you can find the whole transcription of this episode.
You can already subscribe to the podcast on Google, Spotify and Apple.
Welcome to Leading Tourism's Transition, a podcast series by the Digital Tourism Think Tank. In this podcast, we aim to go underneath the skin of some of the most critical issues facing our industry as we explore what they mean for destinations through the lens and perspective that experts can bring to the table.
Unlike most of the other things we do at the Digital Tourism Think Tank, we are taking an expert view on this that doesn't come from destinations first, but actually comes from the role of consultants, experts, and the academic sector to try and understand what is some of the research and best practice that sits behind some of the most interesting examples of transformation that we are seeing today.
In this first series, we have got together with Birka Valentine, someone who is very respected and widely known across the industry, who's helping us to understand a little bit the questions and perhaps some of the opportunities that exist around how we might leverage the potential of data.
In starting to realise the opportunity to become data-driven in how we address sustainability in this series, together with Birka, we've selected a range of guests who are gonna help to provide a wide range of perspectives that start to unpackage and uncover some of the key issues at play.
In this first episode, we'll be exploring the role of data-driven destinations, and we'll be looking at processes and development and trying to understand how we actually get a different dynamic into our teams about how we approach the role of data in informing the decisions that we have to take but also setting up the right structure, processes and framework that are gonna define our ability to take advantage of the new opportunities that sit behind a sustainable transformation of our sector.
In episode two, we'll be sitting down and exploring how to select the right data, and importantly, how we make sure that we make the right choices when it comes to data, so that we don't run after everything, but we narrow down to exactly the data that's going to help provide the answers where we have questions. And in the third episode, we will be looking at how to invest in our own capabilities.
What are the skills, capabilities, and talents that we need to bring into the sector, or perhaps that we need to retain and keep?
How do we nurture and develop those so that being data-driven isn't just a buzzword, but it's actually something that we have truly invested in, that we have a strong sense of vision, a long-term view on, and we can really start to execute some of those big ideas that we often explore, but rarely have the opportunity to really see play out.
Today's episode starts off with a sit-down chat with Anna Scuttari, and she has brought her expertise to the table to start to share with us a wide range of perspectives on what it means to become data-driven as a destination.
Thank you for inviting me the both of you. I'm really pleased to be here. I'm a professor of Empirical Research at the University of Applied Sciences of Munich. At the same time, I'm also working at a research institute called URAC Research, and I mentioned it because there I'm leading an observatory for sustainable tourism - what we are interested in today.
So we try to measure the impact of tourism at a regional level in a small region in Italy, and we are basically trying also to understand which kind of transformation can be generated by this data collection and monitoring changes actually.
Great. Now, Birka, before we jump into this discussion, we've got three excellent guests lined up. Anna was the first. Maybe give us a little sense of what we can expect over the series and in particular why you thought Anna would be a great person to help set the scene in this first episode.
Yeah, thanks, Nick. Hi Anna and thanks so much Nick for bringing this together. I think it's a really interesting and evolving and dynamic topic, right? The intersection of data and sustainability. And when we're thinking about the content of those few episodes that we wanted to bring in here, I think what was really driving the thinking was that it would be really nice to have a bit of a mix in terms of regional perspectives.
So we will have Anna today, which is more of a European, and specifically, especially a mountain region perspective, as well as the destination itself. Then we will have someone from Mexico in the next episode that will help us to understand a bit more the technical details and the data sources and everything.
But today we're talking about more the processes of developing a strategy and really becoming a data-driven destination. And then in the last episode, we are having someone from Canada, a very different type of destination to talk about really the human resource aspect of all of that and the talent aspect and what that means and what we need and, and where we stand.
So we thought that's a really nice mix. And I'm happy we can start today with Anna and the experience from her destination work and all the expertise, because I know there's a lot of experience and perspective there to be shared.
Great and absolutely what a holistic kind of view on this really important topic we are gonna be treated to over these different episodes.
So starting out with yourself, Anna, tell us about how you've seen things evolve and today, what does it mean to be a data-driven destination? It's something that we have heard this term thrown around quite a lot. And of course, we have these conversations in the context of how to apply data together with our sustainability goals and intentions. But of course, things are having to evolve and we have to see that move forward. So what does that mean for today's destinations?
Yeah, actually what I think is that a lot of destinations have been driven by data for more than 20 years. But the point is, which kind of data? So in the first 2000s, the data they were driven by was basically the traditional statistics of tourism. How many people get in arrivals, overnights, the average length of stay and the occupancy rate of hotels and similar accommodation facilities nowadays?
Well, I tried to guess that they were driven by an objective to grow and grow more so and attract more people. When I was a graduate student, the most important topic we were talking about was basically attractively and how to increase the brand of the image and the brand of the destination.
Nowadays, we don't talk that much anymore about how to attract people. We talk about how to manage those flows and how to keep a balance between local inhabitants, tourists and the use of resources and the cost of resources.
Of course over the last few months, I would say more than ever. That's why, even if, similarly to the past, we are still data-driven. We are driven by different kinds of data and this data is not collected in a standardised way. And that's the main weak point, in my opinion, because official statistics are not able to provide destinations with this kind of evidence. That's why basically destinations keep using the old type of data, but they would need other kinds of data.
For instance, they would need to know the CO2 emissions per capita of tourists. They would need to know which kind of target groups they had to address if they only knew which of them is consuming in a more efficient manner.
And this data pool is basically not available on a standard level. That's why we're still at the beginning of this path. We are not able to provide standards worldwide, but we're still collecting wonderful experiences on the way and we are trying to respond to the very punctual and specific needs of the different stakeholders, which makes the thing a little bit less efficient, a little bit more experimental, but still, I think it's necessary because we haven't developed yet the standards we would need yet.
So that really helps us kind of get that context of where data is, not perhaps something new for destinations, but something that is today presenting quite a lot of new challenges for them towards also define how they organise and work with data, where they identify it and how they incorporate that. As you said, some experimental approaches are required to sort of try to understand that better.
Birka, you've worked with so many destinations and data sharing has been central to that work that you've done with destinations. What have you seen when you take that snapshot of a wide range of destinations collaborating and setting out a clear intent to work with data? What does the reality look like?
Yeah, I think there has been tremendous change in the last 10, 15 years obviously from the time I've been in the area and in this specific space really between sustainability and data. We've seen increasing awareness and knowledge about this topic.
It has entirely changed in terms of what we see more and more, you know, that kind of soft indicators for conferences on policy papers and policies themselves and discussions that the topic of monitoring is now not something that comes up as a surprise.
It's definitely there and it always comes up. I think Covid helped certainly to raise, even more, higher awareness of the importance of data and having better evidence to take more responsible decisions.
So that change itself I think is very clear. I can just support what Anna was saying. Obviously, we are very used to focusing now on the traditional kind of perspective of growth of marketing, and I think probably shouldn't be out of our system, but it's still in many destinations.
It is difficult to argue why resources should go into certain activities for data monitoring, where you don't really have a direct business case, right? So that's still a big challenge in many cases.
So when you look around, I guess, the world in many destinations, we also like to have a common kind of explanation and pattern for us, when we look at destinations, but they're so different in their context and their needs and their basis and their foundation of what they have and what kind of information they have.
That is almost obviously impossible to be able to get to a level where all of the destinations are on at this kind of the same level of development. What kind of insights do they have? I don't think that needs to be what we see right now. I mean, we'll have it for many more years to come. And some are much more or further down the road, let's say, in terms of being able to try out more data sources to add more to the traditional ones to build their own systems, to keep continuity and their approaches, and not just ad hoc projects, for example.
There's a political level that plays into this in terms of what support is there and for how long. So there's just a lot of variety in terms of where destinations stand. But what is certain is that we are talking about a topic that all of the destinations know by now, and that has really changed many years ago.
So tourism data has in fact been very standardised for many years. When we talk about tourism statistics, we talk about the same numbers across all destinations. And of course, that has also come under a lot of criticism. So when we talk about tourism statistics, we also criticise that we measure our KPIs by bed nights and growth.
And today, when we think about some of the issues that we see stemming out of tourism, in fact, those numbers are not always helpful. But, Anna, you mentioned, things like the emissions targets that we set as an industry now requiring new sets of data, and here perhaps globally, there is actually standardisation and there are ISOs, which help us to create the right governance models.
When we look across the tourism industry in a wide range of destinations that exist, it seems there's very little standardisation or interoperability of data. What do you see as the models today that are starting to be built, how destinations are approaching this and whether we perhaps are moving towards some sense of consistency or in fact, is that something we are far from?
Well, actually I believe that's something we are far away from. There are some destinations that are kind of pioneers and they're working out their own methodology. For instance, I know about Visit Norway having a very precise estimation of CO2 emissions related to tourism and the transport sector. There is good work also in the Netherlands.
We have tried to start an estimation, but I think there's a double problem with this. Because you have, on the one hand, the calculation of the CO2 emissions, that's quite complex, direct, indirect, what, what do you calculate? And so on. And, the other side of the coin is how to break it down to tourism.
In general, that's a well-known formula, but when it comes to calculating the added value by tourism or for tourism, then, the first difficulties start because everybody is interpreting the indirect economic effects and the induced effect in a different way, it depends on the region, as Birka said, it depends on the kind of activity, on the participation of locals.
That's the same for CO2 emissions. If we consider, mountain regions like ours, we have the possibility to estimate the CO2 emissions of hotels. Maybe that will be a very or quite standardised way of doing it. We might collect quite precise data about the car fleet and how much CO2 emissions are related to car transport and so on.
But then when it comes to activities, for instance, skiing, which is one of the main activities in the winter in our region, we start having difficulties in understanding how much of these emissions or how much of these impact is produced by locals that are going to ski over the weekend and how much is related to tourists.
The same goes for museums and other facilities. So I think there's a lot of goodwill, but we're not reaching the standards yet. The interesting fact is that the tourism sector is trying to do its own tiny calculation. And that's good exercise. And on the other hand, at a regional or national level, they are trying to make a top-down calculation, which is good.
For instance, in our region, we tried to estimate the CO2 emissions of transport and we got to a number, but we couldn't really be extremely sure that it was very precise. We were very happy when we noticed that there was another calculation, including the entire emissions of all sectors in our region. And then they broke it down and tried to estimate the one of tourism and we were getting similar figures. That's why I think it's so important to have this kind of triangulation of results at this moment.
So we don't need to have standards yet. We need to have people with goodwill and good knowledge of data management and maybe methods that we should try to triangulate before we decide which is the best one.
So that's a really great kind of point there that it's perhaps just too early to be able to do that, but we need to be able to put everything out on the table. I love the term triangulate because I think it really kind speaks to that need to examine, compare, challenge and really try to narrow down to accurate sets of data that we can rely on, and that we don't overlap, we don't overestimate, we don't try to perhaps falsify results that might lead to a more positive outcome.
And that we are really doing this with the best intentions to get an accurate measurement of the impact that we have as an industry and how that sits alongside all of the other activities.
When you talk about the local skiing, there's even this grey question: is this tourism? Where does tourism start and stop? What is the difference between, say, the tourism economy and the visitor economy? And so there's a lot of greys that sits up between us and the industry, we need to work that out in order to be able to get some sense of accuracy. Birka, you've seen a lot of this kind of thinking process going on. How do you see those development stages in the destinations that you've worked with?
Yeah, I think the very interesting thing here is just on that example, what Anna mentioned with the emissions, how complicated that is just for one or two indicators, right? And then we're talking about a list of indicators for destinations.
Even when we look at the certification lists, for example, you know, sometimes 30 or more indicators that destinations need to need to generate information for. When we talk about building a data model for all of the insights, a holistic one for the destination, I think it becomes a really good example of how complex that can get, and it gives the answer a bit as well, why we are not as further advanced than we are at this moment of time. Because it is so complex.
And I do think we have to remember many times the realities, and you see that in destinations over and over again and that's just how it is. There are those advances that are needed and for certain indicators, you know, successes being made, and then maybe there is a shift in leadership or shift and support.
Then there are a few years where there's almost no advancement coming in. Where maybe then if another momentum is being created over time, it is really difficult to know what happened then before.
I guess to this continuity, to building a whole kind of data infrastructure and data model for a destination and an indicator set, advancing that to that extent, that we feel very comfortable in all of those levels.
It's just an enormously complex task to do. And so what we see in destinations is that in certain areas there's advancement, in others there's not so much, and it is also the reason why I guess the third-party providers of data are so attractive, obviously.
That is because if there's data that can be bought and where the answers are coming without the destination, having to go through the process of what the methodology is because that's also kind of a development process in terms of not only getting into the nitty-gritty of the technical methodology but also in terms of what is our position on certain things and where do we take decisions and what direction, right?
That's quite a complex task in itself as well. So that's why I think for certain indicators where we have information that is relatively easily available through third-party sources or external partners, it's very understandable that those are so attractive as they are today. And that if there's a possibility to avoid this entire process of developing methodologies - certain destinations don't have the resources to avoid that process.
Yeah. You mentioned a few things there. Resources, you also talked about, the need to identify the right data and be able to work with that. And Anna, you spoke especially about the capabilities and the knowledge needed to do that.
If we think about just the technical aspects, we need to be able to build the right technology architecture to be able to record and then later benchmark and analyse, that very foundational data that we need to begin with.
But if we also think about the realities in the juxtaposition of that, we have, an industry that's made up of hundreds, well, thousands of SMEs, most don't have time to do even the most basic things they need for their business, such as the day-to-day marketing. So this is already a challenge.
So recording and finding those data points within their business, and then recording and reporting on those, which is, of course, essential for the whole industry to get a clearer picture seems a huge challenge.
On the other hand, when you talk about resources, they are stretched. We have many destinations better funded than others. So how do we need to work closer together? Do we need to really align much better? What about things like open data, for example, where perhaps there's an opportunity to also create standards so that, a governor's model can be created through data that everybody at their own pace and time can come on board with some sense of standardisation? So a few questions there, but I would be very curious to hear what your thoughts are on those.
Yeah, the open data one got me right away, and I know you have experience with that one as well. Maybe you wanna share your experience with the open data front first.
What I think is the discussion around open data goes along for a couple of years now, but still, I would argue, it's nice to have. I totally agree that we need to improve the accessibility of data and the standards of creating databases and sharing them.
All the discussion around fair data from the European Union is also a very important one. Nowadays, you're supposed as a researcher, not to just publish your results, but also to publish your data sets, which is wonderful in the end, because you enable other people to work with your data. I think it's the way knowledge should be built. I mean, that's a good trend and I totally support it.
On the other hand, I mean, I think we have still in our observatory, which is a very small one with just 30 indicators, as Birka said, and a couple of people working on it.
I still believe that we generate those indicators every year and with a time series of 10 years. So not a huge amount of data, but when we present that to stakeholders, they're overwhelmed by this data overload. And that's why, I mean, open data is good for scientists and for the specialists that would like to cope with to further develop data analysis. But I think those institutions, universities or even research centres that would like to address policy makers, well they, of course, can rely on open data, but they should really pack the data in a way that they're able to generate narratives through data.
And I mean, we've discussed a lot and it's not so easy to decide where to cut the line between science and policy. And that's exactly the difficult thing, because if you provide stakeholders with 30 indicators and a trend of 10 years without giving them any key message, and by explaining to them how you were calculating them, of course, it's okay to have metadata to explain how the procedure is and so on.
They will maybe follow you for the first half an hour and then maybe you will lose that completely. So the thing is how to pack your own, how to produce narratives from your own data in order to also be able to initiate a transformation. I think this is as much important as the discussion around open data, so should be transparent.
It's also a good exercise for us as researchers and academics to publish our data sets because then you really have to accomplish all standards, they don't have to be understood just for you. They need to be understandable for everybody, which is a good objective because then I have to be very clear in the structure of my data.
But on the other hand, only a few people will access and will use those raw data. So I have to also take responsibility, and it's also an ethical responsibility, I think to produce a result that is understandable for the majority of the citizens of a region. And we tried it out by creating a video of our report. We have a huge report with 120 pages. And every time we prepare it, we say, well, next year it'll be shorter, but then every time we deal with those 30 indicators, we start creating graphs and so on. And, of course, diagrams take place, the text takes place, you need to explain the methodology and blah, blah, blah. And then you have these 120 pages. Then we tried to make a video for one and a half minutes, and it was such a wonderful exercise for us. So I think we should work on both sides.
So communication and narrative are absolutely key to making that translate for the audience that you need to be listening, that you need to be acting, and to be able to break that down in a way that it's accessible for that audience.
Yeah. Because they're not at that level, it's boring to talk for hours and hours about indicators. So we need to make it really interesting and just sharing the database is, I think, not enough to attract those stakeholders that then should act. So I don't wanna judge the level of comprehension. It's not a matter of understanding. They do understand, but it's extremely boring if you are not able to express it in a way that it's forced change.
I'm so glad you made that kind of precision there because it's absolutely about engaging, inspiring and encouraging people to get excited about it. So the other side of that is the opening that up and being transparent and the responsibility that goes with that, which I think is really something that we can actually really try to aim for much, much more across, uh, all of the work we do. Birka what's your perspective on this?
I can only strengthen Anna's side. I think it's an important educational piece for both sides. I think within the destinations as well, just that stakeholders also get used to going back to data, destinations see it and use it. That is something we are not used to in the past, right? So that's also kind of a transformation process that we need to foster and support within the destinations.
Leading by example, making as much, publicly or transparently available, and being able to tell that story in an attractive way. That is a really important piece towards then all the stakeholders once this is done. On the open data side, just one thought on that one as well, because, in several destinations, there's also of course, always the big hope that already existing open data within the destination, for example, from the Ministry of environment or from some other governmental source or even in other open sources, right?
There's data available that can be used relatively easily. Most of the cases are just from experience that depends on the destination of course, but in many cases, that's not always as easy as initially thought.
In many of the destinations where I've been engaged, there was always this process at the beginning of looking at what's available internally, obviously, but then externally, what are some of those open data sources that we could use for some of our insights that we need, and what quality do they have?
And many times is the realisation that the quality is not good enough because it's not provided in a continuous manner, or the format is not in a way that can be used or there's no access to the actual platform and its own old platform.
So there's a really important piece as well in terms of working or building good relationships with those types of entities that have that. That kind of open data landscape that is available, may be improved in the future. It's a bit of a long shot, many times because you never know if they're actually moving right towards the same goals and if there is a priority on that side.
But I think it's a very important point that I've seen in destinations where, if we want to improve really overall the availability of data, then relationships with those entities are really important, at least to talk about it and to make the case why tourism is reliant on that type of information, why it's important for the sector, right?
So yeah, we need to be able to map out the public, the private, the user data, and also be able to evaluate the quality, the accessibility of that data, and really make that assessment about what role it can play in our long term approach to building the infrastructure that we also hope to be able to rely on.
So perhaps closing off today's discussion, a really open question really, which is, to both of you, what are the biggest challenges that you have witnessed amongst destinations that are perhaps holding them back from being able to go further in becoming more data-driven and setting up the right model and the right infrastructure that can sit behind this quite transformative process that we're seeing in tourism right now?
Yeah, I can go with two thoughts first. One I think that I've seen, and almost all of the destinations is the overwhelming feeling at the beginning of this huge mountain to climb, those many different insights to be looked at potentially, the many different approaches to be taken, the kind of homework that needs to be done, like the kind of mapping out of data that is there, the strategic decision of what should we tackle first?
What are the low-hanging fruits? What are the not-so-low-hanging fruit, but of strategic importance, how to allocate resources, who to get as a partner, where to find the technical knowledge, all of that? This is just very overwhelming - as a starting point I think is always one of the first, first things that come up.
Besides the technical part as well as deciding terms of do we want to build this internally. Do we want to build this with a partner externally? Do we just kind of want to buy in data? How do we ensure continuity? And should we build technical knowledge and analytical knowledge internally as well? And if so, how to do that? I think those are two of the things that I've seen over and over again. And there are a lot of pros and cons for all of those sites, right? So that requires quite a process in that sense.
Yeah. How about from the work that you've been doing, Anna? What do you see as the biggest challenges?
Well, I would say the big challenge for us at the moment is to be able to ensure, as Birka said, continuity, to ensure this long-term monitoring. And at the same time, not get into the routine of having every year the same indicator with another figure on the next year. And I don't wanna say get bored in that activity, but, maybe have the risk, not to be able to quickly react on possible new patterns of transformation that are different from the indicators that we monitor since, I don't know, 1976.
So I'm struggling a bit in the observatory we are leading because on the one hand we would like to keep this database and we would like, or we see the value of a regular monitoring.
On the other hand, we have the feeling that it won't be useful for policy makers unless it's very close to the everyday problems of the industry. And of course, if we just choose indicators that are close to the everyday problems of the industry, then we would lose this long-term perspective.
So I think there should be a compromise in between and we should accept, as the very first book that was published on monitoring and tourism, a book by Graham Miller and a colleague of him, indicators should be not cut in stone and we should be flexible enough to keep those indicators that still tell us a story, tell us as a how things are going.
But on the other hand, we should be brave enough to dedicate our energies to new challenges in the industry. Otherwise, there is a kind of mismatch between monitoring and urgency of the policy destination decisions. And then, the credibility of the monitoring activity kind of decreases. And it's quite difficult. This interface between data production and data consumption is quite challenging for us at the moment.
I think those are very thoughtful words to end on. They leave us with quite a lot to consider. And that sense of finding compromise and balance is really key message. I think that sometimes we perhaps don't really accept or don't really consider. But I think you said it beautifully, it leaves us with something to think about.
And just want to say a huge thanks to both yourself, Anna and Birka for this first episode, which I really think helps set the scene when we talk about data-driven transformation. What are some of the big challenges that actually perhaps get in the way of that ideal that we kind of look towards, but perhaps need us to consider the real kind of detailed challenges which find their way into that vision? And some really great thoughts there to set it up.
Well, I hope you enjoyed this episode of Leading Tourism's Transition. I know that it certainly has been very interesting from where I'm standing. Anna Scutari gave us a really excellent analysis of how destinations can seize those opportunities by being more data-driven. And of course, thank you to Birka for this excellent navigation of some of these complex issues, where as always, she's able to provide a huge amount of perspective.
So if you are looking at where you can get the next episode, don't worry, subscribe to the series and make sure you get this wherever you get your podcasts.
Next week we will be joined by Arturo Constantini from Brain Analytics, who's gonna help us unpackage the idea around what it means to build the right data within your processes. The question we will be asking is how do we select the right data and the right content that helps us to move to the next level so we don't just make a commitment to being data-driven, but we start to organise everything that exists in that data lake. We hope to see you then. Have a great week.
Digital Tourism Think Tank
Independent Expert
University of Applied Sciences of Munich
Welcome to Leading Tourism's Transition, a podcast series by the Digital Tourism Think Tank. In this podcast, we aim to go underneath the skin of some of the most critical issues facing our industry as we explore what they mean for destinations through the lens and perspective that experts can bring to the table.
Welcome to Leading Tourism's Transition, a podcast series by the Digital Tourism Think Tank. In this podcast, we aim to go underneath the skin of some of the most critical issues facing our industry as we explore what they mean for destinations through the lens and perspective that experts can bring to the table.
Welcome to Leading Tourism's Transition, a podcast series by the Digital Tourism Think Tank. In this podcast, we aim to go underneath the skin of some of the most critical issues facing our industry as we explore what they mean for destinations through the lens and perspective that experts can bring to the table.
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