In this second episode, we'll be exploring the types of data that destinations should look at to become data-driven, and trying to understand how we should develop our projects internally to ensure our success when working with data to become more competitive.
We're very excited to share the second episode of Leading Tourism's Transition, our new podcast series. In this episode, we'll be exploring the types of data that destinations should be focusing on and how to become data-driven with Birka Valentin and Arturo Constantini, two experts in the industry. Below you can find the whole transcription of this episode.
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[TRANSCRIPT]
Welcome to the second episode of Leading Tourism's Transition, where today we'll be focusing on selecting the right data and content with Arturo Rafael Constantini Torress, co-founder of Brain Analytics and Innovation. And of course, once again, we'll be joined by Birka Valentin following our conversation on from the first episode where we focused on processes and development together with Anna Scutari.
Today we're going to be focusing on different approaches to building data capability within destinations. We're gonna be looking at questions like, what are the right kind of insights that destinations need when they pursue this pathway towards sustainability? We'll be looking at some of the big questions that are being asked, and of course, from the technical and data side, whether we have the data that we need in order to answer those, what kind of insights can we generate? And what kind of data are destinations currently working with, but perhaps don't yet have in their toolset? We'll also be looking at how we can get more out of data, both building our own first-party data, but also looking at how the data landscape when it comes to destinations has evolved. And of course, has the pandemic impacted that? Does this change our shift, our focus, and perhaps even our familiarity when it comes to how we work with data?
There are many questions which we're going to explore in today's episode. So without any further ado, let's jump straight in.
So, welcome back to the Digital Tourism Think Tanks podcast Leading Tourism's Transition. I'm really pleased to be joined again by Birka Valentin, who has been helping us put together this incredible first series where we are deep diving into some really rich perspectives around data and how to bring this together with sustainability. And today's guest is Arturo Constantini.
Arturo, great to have you with us. You're the co-founder of Brain Analytics and have a huge wealth of experience behind you. So, before we jump into the conversation, I'd like to invite you, Arturo, to just tell us a little bit more about yourself and your background, uh, so we can get to understand you a little bit better.
Okay? Sure. First of all, thank you for inviting me. It is a really great pleasure to be here. And just to give you a little bit about my background, let's see. I really think that tourism and data found me. I did not find tourism myself.
I was a former journalist for 8 years, and one day I got an invitation from the Ministry of Tourism to incorporate myself into the statistic area. I was kind of as surprised for me because I wasn't an economist or a mathematician or engineer, however, they told me, you know what we need, someone is able to understand economics and data because of your also data journalism background, but you're able to tone it down when it comes to giving the information to our audience because sometimes when we have very technical people, they tend to publish articles that are not very digestible for the everyday user. So that's how my journey began. And while I was there, they put me in charge of the strategy of incorporating big data sources and promoting smart destinations as well. So that's how my career in the tourism area started.
Great. Well, so pleased to have you with us and going over to you, Birka. Of course, this is a multi-part series, and you've helped us identify some fascinating people that I can honestly say that I would have probably not come across myself directly, and I think many of the listeners to this podcast perhaps have never met and never had the opportunity to see these very nuanced perspectives that this wonderful set of guests have been able to bring us. Tell us a little bit about what stood out to you about Arturo and why you thought he would make a great contributor to today's show.
Yeah. Hi everyone and hi Nick and Arturo. Thanks so much for joining us. I am very happy you could be in on the podcast today so Nick let me answer your question right away. As Arturo actually pointed out quite well, it's always quite difficult to find those people that have the technical skills, right? And that can break that down for normal brains.
It's funny though that Arturo's company's called Brain Analytics, but I guess that's really one of the things when I got to know Arturo and his colleague, you know, a few years ago already that stood out and that was always fun and good to have wherever we met. So that's why I thought he'd be a good fit in this podcast where we are talking about data and what data is needed in destinations to get them to be more data-driven - I thought we could use some of that skill in this podcast today.
And it certainly seems that way. And one of the things Birka, you have really helped us to connect is the relationship between the sustainability goals that pretty much the entire tourism industry is now focused on, and asking themselves how can they really make progress in addressing sustainability and the use of technology and more specifically data to help them to achieve that. So let's start to unpackage this world of data in particular with that lens of sustainability.
Perhaps we can start by looking at some of the different approaches that you've seen in the work that both of you have done when it comes to how destinations are building the right data sets that they need to have and getting the right capabilities that need to go alongside that to really growing their overall approach as destinations to become more data capable, data ready and to be able to really use that data to make real progress in the work that they're doing.
Yeah, I think this is already starting out with a really complex question because all the realities that we find in destinations, right, look completely different many times. So the approaches as well, when you look at different destinations, they all differ. They have to differ not only because the realities are different, but also in terms of sustainability. The questions and the topics of relevance many times differ, right? Capacities, financial resources and all those elements that play into it.
I think that's actually a great thing to have two of us here, because both of us worked in different areas also within, you know, the world, which culturally sometimes is also an element that plays into that. So that I think is the very first point one really needs to keep in mind.
I know we always strive for some certain level of alignment obviously. For years, we have all been trained to look at benchmarking and trying to compare things, apples to apples, but in many cases, and at least in the data area and the data strategy, that's really difficult to do. I don't know if, Arturo, that's your feeling for it as well, but that's what I've seen, at least in, in destinations.
Yeah. I think that when we are trying to compare different destinations it's very complicated. So, for instance, if you're a small destination and you want to come up with a data strategy and you wanted to compare yourself with a bigger destination, that is not going to work out because you have different capabilities like you mentioned, different financial resources.
And I think the biggest challenge here concerns approaches, as Nick was talking about, I think I found two approaches. One that works and one that doesn't. The ones that work are when you have a data strategy in place when you know what kind of data you need and for what purpose. The second approach is "I want to have more data just because", just because big data has become a buzzword or "I need to have more and more and more data". Once you have it, you have no clue what to do with it. Maybe you acquired data, but you don't have the right server to store all the data. You don't have the right people to process the data or the right kind of software. So those are the things that I think the biggest challenge is data literacy among destinations.
I think that's a great kind of opening set of ideas from both of you there. And I think it really comes down to that big question about what is actually driving us to do what we are trying to do with data. And perhaps this is a question that not every destination today is able to answer so confidently. Big data, great, but what do you want to achieve with that data?
So I guess maybe, as we start out exploring this in particular through that lens of sustainability, what do both of you believe are the insights that destinations actually need to start gathering? What kind of data do they need to start building a baseline of in order to be able to then take steps forward with that? Because I think in many cases we see that destinations want to work with big data, but they don't necessarily own or have access to really valuable sets of data that help them to build that initial foundation.
The bottom of the question is, what is the data that destinations need to start out with? They want to pursue big ideas with data, but maybe they miss that very initial baseline.
Might be a little bit counterintuitive, but first of all, they need to understand the data they already have before they start to get into acquiring more data. Understand what you have, because you already have information, basic information that we have from many, many years, which is country of origin. We already have that. We have immigration, we have information coming from airline companies. We have accommodation information, how long tourists are staying, and which areas are the hotspots for tourists, right? So that's the basic information.
First of all, you need to get that right. You need to understand that data, process it well, and then move on to the next questions, which I believe there are three main data sources driving the force right now. The first two are mostly for managing destinations. That's mobile position & data and point of sale data. That's very crucial. And the other one is social media data sentiment analysis, building out your reputation, which I think is more being used when it comes to hotels. But destinations are also getting really interested in social media as well to understand tourist behaviour.
And that's a really interesting starting point. Cause whilst all of that data exists, most of it exists under license, and it's not necessarily proprietary data that destinations own or can build up without significant investments. So really interesting to hear your thoughts there. Arturo, Birka, if we look at some of these questions around data and think about the sustainable development needs of a destination, I imagine accessing some of that data and being able to put it to use in a meaningful and long-term sense can be quite prohibitive financially, in terms of resources. But what is your experience of seeing how destinations have tackled this?
Yeah, yeah. That's a very good question and it has many facets as well, right? I mean, we already know that the Sustainable Development Goals have quite a big umbrella of different topics and sustainability in general. But when you really look at, for example, the different certifications teams that are out there or the main problems destinations face or have faced in the last few years before Covid, but also even during Covid. What it comes down to when you compare all those different mechanisms and frameworks, many times, more or less the same 10, 12, 15 topics come up. Obviously one of the basis is always the arrivals, economic benefits, and employment, those are kind of the traditional types of information that most destinations at least have some sort of starting point.
I guess I want to circle back on the point that Arturo made on this. You know, the data that is already there is usually the best starting point to not only build capacities and see and really understand what's missing but as Arturo was saying, you know, the cleaning and the processing is then the one that is getting that foundational data that is already there, right?
In order to build on top of those big elements that then come together. We say the processing and the cleaning of it in the phrase of two minutes, but for destinations that many times means months and months of looking at the data and trying to clean it and trying to align with it, have it in a way that's comparable, reliable and make sure that this is actually something you can build on.
And then on top of that, usually there are topics such as, and I mean on the social side, the local engagement, accessibility, those are some of the, especially the sustainability, topics that are coming in, and obviously underneath of all those issue areas or topics or themes or whatever you want to call them, there are lots of different indicators that destinations can manage. So it's a much bigger pathway in those themes.
Then, on the environmental side, you have the climate kind of data emissions information, including land use and some of those information sources are even available many times in different sources, for example, governmental institutions or organisations, right? So there's really a larger play around: what is our priority in terms of those topics? "What governance?" is another one in terms of the management of the destinations. What are the qualitative, what are the quantitative types of information? Who has that already in the destination? What partnerships do we need? And where then do other data sources come in that we can acquire from third parties? And how much money do we have for that?
I guess what you're really pointing to is the kind of data lake that exists, which is absolutely enormous. If we especially take on board sustainability as a priority area for destinations, the destination as a whole, this presents a really, really huge set of choices in terms of how do we focus on the environmental quality of the destination and how we can monitor and set goals towards making improvements there? Do we look at the social elements, which in itself is Pandora's box of many, many different issues that we need to unpackage from diversity through to opportunity, through to prosperity? And then, of course, the traditional tourism strategies and goals which have been traditionally focused on creating prosperity and creating more competitiveness, bringing more people or more spending to the destination.
So, if we just consider that historically destinations have only had to focus on bringing people to the destination and seeing a better quality and a better spend, and now we factor in all of these other questions related to sustainability, it's almost infinite. I guess it comes down to being able to have some clarity through all of that and select and choose where actually the DMO is going to focus. And then in particular, where they're going to focus their efforts when it comes to data for the sake of having consistency, for the sake of being able to monitor overtime and see that change in progress.
What do you both think about the work you've done with destinations is there a good opportunity to get started? Where can destinations actually see some early results with the work that they can do using their data, using their skills, and using their ability to bring people together?
Well, I think that the first approach is to actually come up with a plan before you start to acquire data. Okay, what kind of data do I need for our purpose? Just like I mentioned before, but let me give you an example.
I've worked with the town of Tequila which is on the Pacific of Mexico, and they actually became the first destination to be certified by the government. And I've worked with them really closely, and I think they have a key element. They come up with a long-term plan, but they don't see it as a short-term solution, because you need to address these challenges. First of all, technology. When you want to incorporate technology, it becomes obsolete. So it's not just about, "I just have this data, I just have a new server" and that's it. If you want to continue to, for instance, acquire more data, maybe you need to improve that server, or maybe you need to buy some more space in the cloud.
And second of all, considering, the people who're going to take care of the data, it's not only about having data scientists, but they have to understand as well, the tourism sector, because understanding tourism from a statistical point of view is quite complicated. It's not as easy as it looks. So they understood that. And second of all, they prioritised, they didn't want to go all in. They thought, "ok, first of all, we're going to focus on this aspect", which was having access points, because they needed to understand mobility around the destinations to manage better, how people move across the territory. So having that already in your head, already in your paper, and also wanting to collaborate with many actors. And now we're getting to the governance aspect of it because for data, you need the private sector to be involved, you need the public sector to be involved, and you need people as well to be involved. You need all of them working together and sharing, because that's another issue here, sharing information because otherwise everything is gonna be spread out.
And lastly is that first, you need to come up with some sort of small projects to work on instead of just, acquiring massive amounts of data and seeing what happens. No, do a little project and see what happens, what goes, because one of the things that happen is lack of consistency. You come up with a project, but you put all in, doesn't work, or then you have to pay more, and you don't have that already in your budget. And then the project collapses. Actually, that's what happened when we worked with the ministry. We came up with a project with the Spanish bank, BBVA, and we did it for a year, came out great, but then when we went to renew the contract, it became more expensive. We did not have resources. So, you know, the only thing we ended up with was a nice picture. I mean, it was a good exercise. We could learn from it, but we need to be able to create that continuity throughout the whole process.
I think that's a really valuable firsthand experience that you are sharing, Arturo. It's something that I think we can all somehow relate to, but maybe we don't always hear the need to be thinking in small steps, about having successes, achieving the first goal before moving on to the next, and being able to also maybe see those as opportunities to prototype and test ideas around what we can gain and learn from the data that we are looking at in small bites, what our limitations are as a team, in terms of technical capabilities and how far we can go. And ultimately, that may shape the direction we go as well. Whether we want to get in deeper on a technical level or actually find creative or innovative ways to build from there. And I guess, you know, this is also where every destination is actually very unique in a sense of their resources, their capabilities, the topography and the issues that they face as a destination. And it really does seem like those decisions on data need to actually not follow the trend that you maybe see across 30, 50, a 100 different destinations, but actually select the individual needs that really are important for them and their destination. So I think your speaking about the successes and failures is really key here and I think you really point to some good examples.
Yeah. What I think Nick, on the most basic level, many times it comes down to the commitment and the courage to go that path because it is not a very easy one. I think the point that a tool made of the continuity, many destinations, when they embark on that type of, let's say it's not even a project, but, you know, change of system, I'm not conscious of what that may entail. And then it is very, very easy to get lost in this whole data sphere because there are so many topics and there are so many needs. But in the end, starting out with a specific project or with using that data that is actually there and trying to make it clean and processed in a way that we talked about just before, will help many times, at least in the destinations that I've seen, will help many times to show the stakeholders that all have specific interests and all have different interests and needs, what the data should do for them will help to show what kind of data gaps are there.
It will hopefully help to prove as well that more data and more visuals for certain topics will make it easier to understand what's going on within the destination. So it's a whole kind of game of starting by creating proof points and making the case for data, and then being able to continue that work and extend it. And that's in the system we have today in destinations and as DMOs, it is a challenge because the systems are not made for that type of evolution, let's say.
Yeah, we talk a lot about funding, we talk a lot about KPIs, and there's a lot of pressure from different angles when we look at a destination, who they're trying to report to, but I think this is also a challenge for them to take on and see, you know, how can we set the right expectations so that they're not pressurised into going for this kind of big-ticket projects, which are all singing and dancing, but maybe, uh, just unrealistic and, or perhaps they're amazing, but actually don't really serve any obvious purpose.
You mentioned the importance of being able to visualise data, and I think it's a key point that we've seen a lot of data visualisation. It's been one of the sexiest sides of data, but we also at the same time, don't always see the use case being demonstrated through that process.
We see visualisation for the sake of it because it looks good, and perhaps it's a modern-day booklet that you put on the boardroom table, but does it necessarily give you the insights that you can work with? So I guess there are some really interesting areas that we can unpackage here, but if we take a kind of bigger look at how things have evolved and developed, of course, we are really coming out of the pandemic right now, which is an interesting phase because we've spent two years looking at data, looking at data at incremental levels. And even the average citizen has now got a much higher comfort level when it comes to data as they've been looking at Covid stats. So how has this shifted things in tourism, in your opinion? Has it changed our relationship with data, knowledge, our expectations.
Well, at least when people see a map these days, everyone kind of feels comfortable with that. So that's already a good point on that one. But yeah, Arturo, I'll let you answer that first and then I'll go because I know you have lots to say about that.
Well, first of all, the first thing that was affected by Covid in terms of the statistical point of view was that destinations were not able to conduct surveys anymore. Face-to-face surveys, became quite difficult because you were not allowed to. So in a way, destinations were forced or given an opportunity to explore alternative data sources.
Prior to the pandemic, every destination had on its bucket list big data. It was something, it was there, you know, seducing the destination, "Hey, I'm here", you know, but when the pandemic came, it was a necessity, an opportunity and necessity as well, because you needed to understand what was going on at first and what was gonna happen after about their recovery. So you wanted to know how, if the behaviour of tourists would change or not, and if so, how you were able to adapt.
Then governments started to establish, for instance, different apps for tracking people if they had Covid or not, if they were vaccinated or not. So you had another source of information. So if you were able to connect with the governments and come up with an agreement, let's say, "ok, you know, share with me that information because, for me, it's going to be useful to understand how can I protect better the tourists and make them feel safer when they come to the destination". So in a way, they had to accelerate that process. They understood it, and actually, it really changed. Now the challenge is that service surveys are coming back. So how can you, how are you going to be able to do that? Are you going to stick with the surveys or do something different? And I think you need to keep it balanced.
You still need traditional statistics, but you have to start to know how to incorporate big data, because from what I've seen, incorporating big data as an official statistic is quite complicated. Most national statistic institutes in the world are not happy because of all the biases that innate big data sources. So you're not able to cover every aspect of it. You are not sure you have information from the present but not from the past. So it is a work in progress on how you're going to be able to incorporate, which for me right now is going to be the next big challenge - how to merge those two sources.
And perhaps looking towards the future, how do you see that evolution from here right into the future? Where do you see destinations moving in respect of that and being able to really accomplish a result where big data is deeply integrated as part of their statistical kind of horizon?
For me, if they understand how to incorporate big data sources into traditional ones, then they are going to be able to move to the next step, which is going to be to incorporate artificial intelligence into going from automation to augmentations when in terms of understanding statistics, that's going to be, I think, the next big leap. But only if they understand how to measure big data correctly. Once they have that, then we can move to the next phase, which is going to be quite interesting because you're going to be able.
Right now, some destinations have this idea, they want to monitor and follow the entire tourist journey from even before they purchase a trip to this nation when they get there. And being able to respond quickly to tourist needs. So, for instance, if they're at the airport and maybe they're waiting in the line too long and they can send a signal, "okay, something's going on", we need to act quickly so you can follow them until the end of the journey and after to understand what happened during the journey and act on it. So I think that's gonna be the future of it.
Really great points there. And I think right now, perhaps one of the biggest challenges in achieving that dream is the fragmentation of all those touchpoints and the difficulty in owning that end-to-end journey with the customer.
In terms of the relationship, it means that we might see something going on, but we don't necessarily know through which channels or touchpoints to alert or shape or redirect their interest or their decisions. So definitely there's still quite a mountain to climb.
Birka, from your perspective, I know you've worked on some really holistic projects with different destinations, which really take a complete helicopter view. How do we start to organise ourselves entirely around a data-driven approach? You must have seen a lot of challenges that kind of crop up through those processes. What are some of the challenges that you would say are most common and perhaps most challenging to try and overcome?
Yeah, that's a good question. There are certainly a few that are repetitive now and in all of the destinations many times. And that is obviously the challenge of not having sufficient capacities in terms of human resources and finances. I think that's one of the basics that always comes around.
Then knowledge is a big part of that. Just having sufficient knowledge in being able to look at what's there and see what's missing and be able to analyse even that situation, right? The homework that needs to be done really before creating a strategy that fits the destination's realities, the overwhelming options I guess or possibilities of data sources out there. And the missing knowledge on those in terms of what kind of data source can give us what kind of insights, I think is one of the big challenges many times.
And then yeah, really, not only continuously in using the same data source for the same insights for, you know, many, many years in order to really see some temporal tendencies, but having the people that are staying on the job for a long time, because those type of projects are so complex, that changes, even changes that are happening in the team that is dealing with data, if they're happening, you know, after one year or two years, and then someone who can, needs to get in and needs to acquire all that knowledge again. That in itself is a huge challenge for many destinations. So to attract and keep that knowledge within the house. And I mean, you know that is not even mentioning the biggest challenge of being able to do the analytics in the end and the visualisations first, and then doing the analytics with it. Because as we said before, visuals are good and they help to make some cases, but you only really get the insights and many insights you need, and you see patterns many times only if you start really correlating data, analysing it, and trying to connect the dots between many insights. And that itself is a, is a highly complex challenge.
I think that idea of continuity really hits the nail on their head because it kind of plays out both at the data level in order to invest and build over time, but also in terms of the human approach to that and building the capabilities, building the ownership, and seeing something really through many different stages of its evolution, which is certainly not the case for many destinations that perhaps are just not set up, not structured to be able to do that.
Well, we're going to be unpackaging quite a lot of this in the next episode where we're also gonna look at capabilities. So I think you've lined up a perfect segue for that. Birka, I think before we close off today's episode, I'm actually going to go with Birka's recommendation sheet, which sets out two possible endings for today.
One would be, you know, a really nice ending question, or the alternative, which I really like, which is a rapid-fire round of questions. But although Birka has kind of set this out for me in some of the notes, I think I'm going to play this right back to you guys, including Birka, because I really would love to have your perspective here. So let's kick things off as a quick, as a one phrase answer for each, and I'll start with you Birka, to ask you first of all, what is the one recommendation you'd have for destinations to then become more data-driven?
One recommendation. That is a good question. I think, the biggest, biggest recommendation that I've seen help destinations before they start on the journey is connecting with other destinations to see what they've done and really taking the time to do the homework of seeing what are our different options, who's in this game already, make connections and have the courage to have a really deep and even if it takes a long conversation internally, to see what's the right approach for you. I think if this is done correctly, then you have a good starting point for what's to come.
Arturo, what do you think?
For me, I think it's about understanding and prioritising your needs first, because otherwise, it would be like trying to build a house without the blueprint - it's not going to work, and is going to collapse eventually. So if you have that, your setup is on a very good path towards a data-driven set of mind.
Okay, next question. How do we take it up a level? So we've seen lots of great stuff, even brilliant stuff, but think big, you guys know what's possible, how can we really take things to the next level?
I would love to see, more opportunities for destinations and, you know, that's a whole different discussion where this opportunity is coming from, but more opportunities for destinations to test and trial different types of data sources, data insights and share those lessons learned. With the ability to fail. I don't think we have that culture today much in tourism, and I would love to see that. I think that would help a lot.
Lot. So we need more sandboxes by the sound of it to really test fail and learn from that. And that's absolutely fine. What about you, Arturo?
I think, besides what Birka already mentioned, I would have to say digital knowledge among destination management personnel. Why? Because sometimes when you work with destinations, yes, they want to get into big data and technology, but their team is not really equipped with the knowledge. So it's really hard from the beginning to communicate with them. So it's like, having a conversation in a foreign language for them, and they believe they understand and sometimes they don't. And it creates a lot of friction in how you can interact with the destination managers. So if the team who's gonna work in this project, they already have that digital knowledge, it's going to be a smooth process instead of, you know, something full with obstacles they need to address.
May, may I add to that, Nick?
You may, but you're kind of going over the one-phrase answer, but go ahead.
No, but I think there's a really important question connected to all of that, and that is if we really can expect destination management organisations to build all of that on their own in each of the destinations or if we need to think, you know, outside of the box, to have more knowledge that can go into different destinations and be shared knowledge between destinations because it is quite some work and it's quite some money and it's quite some time that destinations all need to do that.
And maybe kind of on the back of that, what do you think, where do you think failure is likely to crop up in that process? What's going to hold us back ultimately?
Uh, money and experts who can teach and enable the enablers. I think that's time as well.
Where have you seen failure emerge out?
Budget constraints, because sometimes they have a limited budget not considering what I just mentioned, that it is a long-term process, so you might have the budget for this period, but not for the next one, for the continuity of the next one. And for me, when it comes to destinations, the biggest challenge is the change of administration. I've seen failures every time an administration changes, and there's no continuity in the project.
I think that's a really key message that people need to absorb. And I think in particular, anybody who is close to that governmental or even political relationship when it comes to how tourism is governed, to really understand how the governance model needs to be able to find its own pathway independently in order to incorporate these priorities, in order to address the development needs, whether that's related to sustainability, whether that's related to the overall development of the destination, and to be able to pursue that with the big sea continuity, as you mentioned, Birka, which I think, you know, is a real fail point that destinations can trip up.
As you say, change of governments can become a huge obstacle, in fact, result in a huge amount of wasted resources and investments in perhaps sometimes really great projects that can never see it through. At the same time, the capabilities behind that or the consistency of building that data and building that pathway towards a more sustainable and data-driven approach as a DMO can all fall apart if you don't have continuity. So I think Birka, I kind of give that last words to you to perhaps sum up where you think destinations need to reconfigure themselves in order to prevent these risks from encroaching in their operational model.
Yeah, that's a good last one, Nick, because we can speak about this theoretically in terms of yes, we need continuity on the government side, on the governance side, we do need more knowledge on the human resource side. We do need more financing on the technical side and all of that. But the question really is, is that really realistic for what we have today and where we are going in the future? It is clear I think for everyone that if we want to leverage the insights that are out there and we have to be realistic in the years that are coming, we will have more and more insights that we need more commitment to go down that path and to be bolder in trying out different types of structures that work for it. So yeah, I guess that's the summary thought I guess I have on that one.
Yeah, certainly commitment and having a long-term view are the really key principles. And it's funny because we started out today talking about the data that we need, the data that we can tap into and how we can really incorporate that into our work. But in reality, the challenges are not always so much related to the data itself, but actually, our ability to manage, to have the right governance around that data and to find the right place for that within our structures in our systems so that it has a really clear pathway going forward. Thanks to both of you for this great discussion we've had today. Unfortunately, we're running out of time, so we need to close it off there. But Arturo, you've really helped us to get a different perspective. You shared some really interesting cases that we're really grateful for and I have no doubt we will connect again to perhaps dig into this even a little bit deeper and look at some of those cases that you told us about and try to understand.
Yeah, maybe explore a little bit more around how we even create failure for good, for example. So there's a lot more that we could dig into there. Birka, we're going to be back with you in the next episode where we'll look at human resources and capability, and I think this is certainly lined up a lot of thoughts ahead of that. So definitely I already have the questions burning away just there. So I'm looking forward to really exploring how we can address the capability and perhaps mindset and everything else that goes with that. Well, that closes off today's episode. Thank you very much, and we'll see you at the next episode.
Well, that brings us to the end of the second episode of Leading Tourism's transition, where we've been hearing from Arturo and Birka to have their perspectives on selecting the right data and content and how this forms a key part of driving towards a more sustainable future as an industry. Of course, we like to talk a lot about big data, but I think one of the takeaways that I have from listening to that conversation is just how important it's to select not the big data, but the right data, and to then think about how we can use that data in a meaningful way to gather the right insights and to synthesise that with other data that can help build a picture, help tell a story, help point us in the right direction, and set out a clear goal where we have strong measurement underpinned by data that explores and looks at the progress we're making against those indicators that we've set along that journey.
But of course, one of the things it also comes down to is capability. And this is what we'll be covering in the third, and sadly the last episode of this three-part series, where next week we'll be joined together with Michelle Novotny, the lead data analyst at Clever Places, where we'll be discussing, do we have enough pupil skills and knowledge within our industry? How do we attract and retain them? And we'll be looking more specifically at the skills needed, how to develop them and how to make sure that data is a skill set that is widely spread across our industry and it's helping us to meet those goals and objectives when it comes to sustainability. So join us in the next episode where we'll be jumping into that. Thank you for joining, and don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, whether it's Apple, Spotify, or perhaps even Google Podcasts. We would love you to join and subscribe and leave a review. If you've enjoyed listening to this episode.
Digital Tourism Think Tank
Independent Expert
Brain Analytics and Innovation
We're very excited to share the second episode of Leading Tourism's Transition, our new podcast series. In this episode, we'll be exploring the types of data that destinations should be focusing on and how to become data-driven with Birka Valentin and Arturo Constantini, two experts in the industry. Below you can find the whole transcription of this episode.
You can already subscribe to the podcast on Google, Spotify and Apple.
[TRANSCRIPT]
Welcome to the second episode of Leading Tourism's Transition, where today we'll be focusing on selecting the right data and content with Arturo Rafael Constantini Torress, co-founder of Brain Analytics and Innovation. And of course, once again, we'll be joined by Birka Valentin following our conversation on from the first episode where we focused on processes and development together with Anna Scutari.
Today we're going to be focusing on different approaches to building data capability within destinations. We're gonna be looking at questions like, what are the right kind of insights that destinations need when they pursue this pathway towards sustainability? We'll be looking at some of the big questions that are being asked, and of course, from the technical and data side, whether we have the data that we need in order to answer those, what kind of insights can we generate? And what kind of data are destinations currently working with, but perhaps don't yet have in their toolset? We'll also be looking at how we can get more out of data, both building our own first-party data, but also looking at how the data landscape when it comes to destinations has evolved. And of course, has the pandemic impacted that? Does this change our shift, our focus, and perhaps even our familiarity when it comes to how we work with data?
There are many questions which we're going to explore in today's episode. So without any further ado, let's jump straight in.
So, welcome back to the Digital Tourism Think Tanks podcast Leading Tourism's Transition. I'm really pleased to be joined again by Birka Valentin, who has been helping us put together this incredible first series where we are deep diving into some really rich perspectives around data and how to bring this together with sustainability. And today's guest is Arturo Constantini.
Arturo, great to have you with us. You're the co-founder of Brain Analytics and have a huge wealth of experience behind you. So, before we jump into the conversation, I'd like to invite you, Arturo, to just tell us a little bit more about yourself and your background, uh, so we can get to understand you a little bit better.
Okay? Sure. First of all, thank you for inviting me. It is a really great pleasure to be here. And just to give you a little bit about my background, let's see. I really think that tourism and data found me. I did not find tourism myself.
I was a former journalist for 8 years, and one day I got an invitation from the Ministry of Tourism to incorporate myself into the statistic area. I was kind of as surprised for me because I wasn't an economist or a mathematician or engineer, however, they told me, you know what we need, someone is able to understand economics and data because of your also data journalism background, but you're able to tone it down when it comes to giving the information to our audience because sometimes when we have very technical people, they tend to publish articles that are not very digestible for the everyday user. So that's how my journey began. And while I was there, they put me in charge of the strategy of incorporating big data sources and promoting smart destinations as well. So that's how my career in the tourism area started.
Great. Well, so pleased to have you with us and going over to you, Birka. Of course, this is a multi-part series, and you've helped us identify some fascinating people that I can honestly say that I would have probably not come across myself directly, and I think many of the listeners to this podcast perhaps have never met and never had the opportunity to see these very nuanced perspectives that this wonderful set of guests have been able to bring us. Tell us a little bit about what stood out to you about Arturo and why you thought he would make a great contributor to today's show.
Yeah. Hi everyone and hi Nick and Arturo. Thanks so much for joining us. I am very happy you could be in on the podcast today so Nick let me answer your question right away. As Arturo actually pointed out quite well, it's always quite difficult to find those people that have the technical skills, right? And that can break that down for normal brains.
It's funny though that Arturo's company's called Brain Analytics, but I guess that's really one of the things when I got to know Arturo and his colleague, you know, a few years ago already that stood out and that was always fun and good to have wherever we met. So that's why I thought he'd be a good fit in this podcast where we are talking about data and what data is needed in destinations to get them to be more data-driven - I thought we could use some of that skill in this podcast today.
And it certainly seems that way. And one of the things Birka, you have really helped us to connect is the relationship between the sustainability goals that pretty much the entire tourism industry is now focused on, and asking themselves how can they really make progress in addressing sustainability and the use of technology and more specifically data to help them to achieve that. So let's start to unpackage this world of data in particular with that lens of sustainability.
Perhaps we can start by looking at some of the different approaches that you've seen in the work that both of you have done when it comes to how destinations are building the right data sets that they need to have and getting the right capabilities that need to go alongside that to really growing their overall approach as destinations to become more data capable, data ready and to be able to really use that data to make real progress in the work that they're doing.
Yeah, I think this is already starting out with a really complex question because all the realities that we find in destinations, right, look completely different many times. So the approaches as well, when you look at different destinations, they all differ. They have to differ not only because the realities are different, but also in terms of sustainability. The questions and the topics of relevance many times differ, right? Capacities, financial resources and all those elements that play into it.
I think that's actually a great thing to have two of us here, because both of us worked in different areas also within, you know, the world, which culturally sometimes is also an element that plays into that. So that I think is the very first point one really needs to keep in mind.
I know we always strive for some certain level of alignment obviously. For years, we have all been trained to look at benchmarking and trying to compare things, apples to apples, but in many cases, and at least in the data area and the data strategy, that's really difficult to do. I don't know if, Arturo, that's your feeling for it as well, but that's what I've seen, at least in, in destinations.
Yeah. I think that when we are trying to compare different destinations it's very complicated. So, for instance, if you're a small destination and you want to come up with a data strategy and you wanted to compare yourself with a bigger destination, that is not going to work out because you have different capabilities like you mentioned, different financial resources.
And I think the biggest challenge here concerns approaches, as Nick was talking about, I think I found two approaches. One that works and one that doesn't. The ones that work are when you have a data strategy in place when you know what kind of data you need and for what purpose. The second approach is "I want to have more data just because", just because big data has become a buzzword or "I need to have more and more and more data". Once you have it, you have no clue what to do with it. Maybe you acquired data, but you don't have the right server to store all the data. You don't have the right people to process the data or the right kind of software. So those are the things that I think the biggest challenge is data literacy among destinations.
I think that's a great kind of opening set of ideas from both of you there. And I think it really comes down to that big question about what is actually driving us to do what we are trying to do with data. And perhaps this is a question that not every destination today is able to answer so confidently. Big data, great, but what do you want to achieve with that data?
So I guess maybe, as we start out exploring this in particular through that lens of sustainability, what do both of you believe are the insights that destinations actually need to start gathering? What kind of data do they need to start building a baseline of in order to be able to then take steps forward with that? Because I think in many cases we see that destinations want to work with big data, but they don't necessarily own or have access to really valuable sets of data that help them to build that initial foundation.
The bottom of the question is, what is the data that destinations need to start out with? They want to pursue big ideas with data, but maybe they miss that very initial baseline.
Might be a little bit counterintuitive, but first of all, they need to understand the data they already have before they start to get into acquiring more data. Understand what you have, because you already have information, basic information that we have from many, many years, which is country of origin. We already have that. We have immigration, we have information coming from airline companies. We have accommodation information, how long tourists are staying, and which areas are the hotspots for tourists, right? So that's the basic information.
First of all, you need to get that right. You need to understand that data, process it well, and then move on to the next questions, which I believe there are three main data sources driving the force right now. The first two are mostly for managing destinations. That's mobile position & data and point of sale data. That's very crucial. And the other one is social media data sentiment analysis, building out your reputation, which I think is more being used when it comes to hotels. But destinations are also getting really interested in social media as well to understand tourist behaviour.
And that's a really interesting starting point. Cause whilst all of that data exists, most of it exists under license, and it's not necessarily proprietary data that destinations own or can build up without significant investments. So really interesting to hear your thoughts there. Arturo, Birka, if we look at some of these questions around data and think about the sustainable development needs of a destination, I imagine accessing some of that data and being able to put it to use in a meaningful and long-term sense can be quite prohibitive financially, in terms of resources. But what is your experience of seeing how destinations have tackled this?
Yeah, yeah. That's a very good question and it has many facets as well, right? I mean, we already know that the Sustainable Development Goals have quite a big umbrella of different topics and sustainability in general. But when you really look at, for example, the different certifications teams that are out there or the main problems destinations face or have faced in the last few years before Covid, but also even during Covid. What it comes down to when you compare all those different mechanisms and frameworks, many times, more or less the same 10, 12, 15 topics come up. Obviously one of the basis is always the arrivals, economic benefits, and employment, those are kind of the traditional types of information that most destinations at least have some sort of starting point.
I guess I want to circle back on the point that Arturo made on this. You know, the data that is already there is usually the best starting point to not only build capacities and see and really understand what's missing but as Arturo was saying, you know, the cleaning and the processing is then the one that is getting that foundational data that is already there, right?
In order to build on top of those big elements that then come together. We say the processing and the cleaning of it in the phrase of two minutes, but for destinations that many times means months and months of looking at the data and trying to clean it and trying to align with it, have it in a way that's comparable, reliable and make sure that this is actually something you can build on.
And then on top of that, usually there are topics such as, and I mean on the social side, the local engagement, accessibility, those are some of the, especially the sustainability, topics that are coming in, and obviously underneath of all those issue areas or topics or themes or whatever you want to call them, there are lots of different indicators that destinations can manage. So it's a much bigger pathway in those themes.
Then, on the environmental side, you have the climate kind of data emissions information, including land use and some of those information sources are even available many times in different sources, for example, governmental institutions or organisations, right? So there's really a larger play around: what is our priority in terms of those topics? "What governance?" is another one in terms of the management of the destinations. What are the qualitative, what are the quantitative types of information? Who has that already in the destination? What partnerships do we need? And where then do other data sources come in that we can acquire from third parties? And how much money do we have for that?
I guess what you're really pointing to is the kind of data lake that exists, which is absolutely enormous. If we especially take on board sustainability as a priority area for destinations, the destination as a whole, this presents a really, really huge set of choices in terms of how do we focus on the environmental quality of the destination and how we can monitor and set goals towards making improvements there? Do we look at the social elements, which in itself is Pandora's box of many, many different issues that we need to unpackage from diversity through to opportunity, through to prosperity? And then, of course, the traditional tourism strategies and goals which have been traditionally focused on creating prosperity and creating more competitiveness, bringing more people or more spending to the destination.
So, if we just consider that historically destinations have only had to focus on bringing people to the destination and seeing a better quality and a better spend, and now we factor in all of these other questions related to sustainability, it's almost infinite. I guess it comes down to being able to have some clarity through all of that and select and choose where actually the DMO is going to focus. And then in particular, where they're going to focus their efforts when it comes to data for the sake of having consistency, for the sake of being able to monitor overtime and see that change in progress.
What do you both think about the work you've done with destinations is there a good opportunity to get started? Where can destinations actually see some early results with the work that they can do using their data, using their skills, and using their ability to bring people together?
Well, I think that the first approach is to actually come up with a plan before you start to acquire data. Okay, what kind of data do I need for our purpose? Just like I mentioned before, but let me give you an example.
I've worked with the town of Tequila which is on the Pacific of Mexico, and they actually became the first destination to be certified by the government. And I've worked with them really closely, and I think they have a key element. They come up with a long-term plan, but they don't see it as a short-term solution, because you need to address these challenges. First of all, technology. When you want to incorporate technology, it becomes obsolete. So it's not just about, "I just have this data, I just have a new server" and that's it. If you want to continue to, for instance, acquire more data, maybe you need to improve that server, or maybe you need to buy some more space in the cloud.
And second of all, considering, the people who're going to take care of the data, it's not only about having data scientists, but they have to understand as well, the tourism sector, because understanding tourism from a statistical point of view is quite complicated. It's not as easy as it looks. So they understood that. And second of all, they prioritised, they didn't want to go all in. They thought, "ok, first of all, we're going to focus on this aspect", which was having access points, because they needed to understand mobility around the destinations to manage better, how people move across the territory. So having that already in your head, already in your paper, and also wanting to collaborate with many actors. And now we're getting to the governance aspect of it because for data, you need the private sector to be involved, you need the public sector to be involved, and you need people as well to be involved. You need all of them working together and sharing, because that's another issue here, sharing information because otherwise everything is gonna be spread out.
And lastly is that first, you need to come up with some sort of small projects to work on instead of just, acquiring massive amounts of data and seeing what happens. No, do a little project and see what happens, what goes, because one of the things that happen is lack of consistency. You come up with a project, but you put all in, doesn't work, or then you have to pay more, and you don't have that already in your budget. And then the project collapses. Actually, that's what happened when we worked with the ministry. We came up with a project with the Spanish bank, BBVA, and we did it for a year, came out great, but then when we went to renew the contract, it became more expensive. We did not have resources. So, you know, the only thing we ended up with was a nice picture. I mean, it was a good exercise. We could learn from it, but we need to be able to create that continuity throughout the whole process.
I think that's a really valuable firsthand experience that you are sharing, Arturo. It's something that I think we can all somehow relate to, but maybe we don't always hear the need to be thinking in small steps, about having successes, achieving the first goal before moving on to the next, and being able to also maybe see those as opportunities to prototype and test ideas around what we can gain and learn from the data that we are looking at in small bites, what our limitations are as a team, in terms of technical capabilities and how far we can go. And ultimately, that may shape the direction we go as well. Whether we want to get in deeper on a technical level or actually find creative or innovative ways to build from there. And I guess, you know, this is also where every destination is actually very unique in a sense of their resources, their capabilities, the topography and the issues that they face as a destination. And it really does seem like those decisions on data need to actually not follow the trend that you maybe see across 30, 50, a 100 different destinations, but actually select the individual needs that really are important for them and their destination. So I think your speaking about the successes and failures is really key here and I think you really point to some good examples.
Yeah. What I think Nick, on the most basic level, many times it comes down to the commitment and the courage to go that path because it is not a very easy one. I think the point that a tool made of the continuity, many destinations, when they embark on that type of, let's say it's not even a project, but, you know, change of system, I'm not conscious of what that may entail. And then it is very, very easy to get lost in this whole data sphere because there are so many topics and there are so many needs. But in the end, starting out with a specific project or with using that data that is actually there and trying to make it clean and processed in a way that we talked about just before, will help many times, at least in the destinations that I've seen, will help many times to show the stakeholders that all have specific interests and all have different interests and needs, what the data should do for them will help to show what kind of data gaps are there.
It will hopefully help to prove as well that more data and more visuals for certain topics will make it easier to understand what's going on within the destination. So it's a whole kind of game of starting by creating proof points and making the case for data, and then being able to continue that work and extend it. And that's in the system we have today in destinations and as DMOs, it is a challenge because the systems are not made for that type of evolution, let's say.
Yeah, we talk a lot about funding, we talk a lot about KPIs, and there's a lot of pressure from different angles when we look at a destination, who they're trying to report to, but I think this is also a challenge for them to take on and see, you know, how can we set the right expectations so that they're not pressurised into going for this kind of big-ticket projects, which are all singing and dancing, but maybe, uh, just unrealistic and, or perhaps they're amazing, but actually don't really serve any obvious purpose.
You mentioned the importance of being able to visualise data, and I think it's a key point that we've seen a lot of data visualisation. It's been one of the sexiest sides of data, but we also at the same time, don't always see the use case being demonstrated through that process.
We see visualisation for the sake of it because it looks good, and perhaps it's a modern-day booklet that you put on the boardroom table, but does it necessarily give you the insights that you can work with? So I guess there are some really interesting areas that we can unpackage here, but if we take a kind of bigger look at how things have evolved and developed, of course, we are really coming out of the pandemic right now, which is an interesting phase because we've spent two years looking at data, looking at data at incremental levels. And even the average citizen has now got a much higher comfort level when it comes to data as they've been looking at Covid stats. So how has this shifted things in tourism, in your opinion? Has it changed our relationship with data, knowledge, our expectations.
Well, at least when people see a map these days, everyone kind of feels comfortable with that. So that's already a good point on that one. But yeah, Arturo, I'll let you answer that first and then I'll go because I know you have lots to say about that.
Well, first of all, the first thing that was affected by Covid in terms of the statistical point of view was that destinations were not able to conduct surveys anymore. Face-to-face surveys, became quite difficult because you were not allowed to. So in a way, destinations were forced or given an opportunity to explore alternative data sources.
Prior to the pandemic, every destination had on its bucket list big data. It was something, it was there, you know, seducing the destination, "Hey, I'm here", you know, but when the pandemic came, it was a necessity, an opportunity and necessity as well, because you needed to understand what was going on at first and what was gonna happen after about their recovery. So you wanted to know how, if the behaviour of tourists would change or not, and if so, how you were able to adapt.
Then governments started to establish, for instance, different apps for tracking people if they had Covid or not, if they were vaccinated or not. So you had another source of information. So if you were able to connect with the governments and come up with an agreement, let's say, "ok, you know, share with me that information because, for me, it's going to be useful to understand how can I protect better the tourists and make them feel safer when they come to the destination". So in a way, they had to accelerate that process. They understood it, and actually, it really changed. Now the challenge is that service surveys are coming back. So how can you, how are you going to be able to do that? Are you going to stick with the surveys or do something different? And I think you need to keep it balanced.
You still need traditional statistics, but you have to start to know how to incorporate big data, because from what I've seen, incorporating big data as an official statistic is quite complicated. Most national statistic institutes in the world are not happy because of all the biases that innate big data sources. So you're not able to cover every aspect of it. You are not sure you have information from the present but not from the past. So it is a work in progress on how you're going to be able to incorporate, which for me right now is going to be the next big challenge - how to merge those two sources.
And perhaps looking towards the future, how do you see that evolution from here right into the future? Where do you see destinations moving in respect of that and being able to really accomplish a result where big data is deeply integrated as part of their statistical kind of horizon?
For me, if they understand how to incorporate big data sources into traditional ones, then they are going to be able to move to the next step, which is going to be to incorporate artificial intelligence into going from automation to augmentations when in terms of understanding statistics, that's going to be, I think, the next big leap. But only if they understand how to measure big data correctly. Once they have that, then we can move to the next phase, which is going to be quite interesting because you're going to be able.
Right now, some destinations have this idea, they want to monitor and follow the entire tourist journey from even before they purchase a trip to this nation when they get there. And being able to respond quickly to tourist needs. So, for instance, if they're at the airport and maybe they're waiting in the line too long and they can send a signal, "okay, something's going on", we need to act quickly so you can follow them until the end of the journey and after to understand what happened during the journey and act on it. So I think that's gonna be the future of it.
Really great points there. And I think right now, perhaps one of the biggest challenges in achieving that dream is the fragmentation of all those touchpoints and the difficulty in owning that end-to-end journey with the customer.
In terms of the relationship, it means that we might see something going on, but we don't necessarily know through which channels or touchpoints to alert or shape or redirect their interest or their decisions. So definitely there's still quite a mountain to climb.
Birka, from your perspective, I know you've worked on some really holistic projects with different destinations, which really take a complete helicopter view. How do we start to organise ourselves entirely around a data-driven approach? You must have seen a lot of challenges that kind of crop up through those processes. What are some of the challenges that you would say are most common and perhaps most challenging to try and overcome?
Yeah, that's a good question. There are certainly a few that are repetitive now and in all of the destinations many times. And that is obviously the challenge of not having sufficient capacities in terms of human resources and finances. I think that's one of the basics that always comes around.
Then knowledge is a big part of that. Just having sufficient knowledge in being able to look at what's there and see what's missing and be able to analyse even that situation, right? The homework that needs to be done really before creating a strategy that fits the destination's realities, the overwhelming options I guess or possibilities of data sources out there. And the missing knowledge on those in terms of what kind of data source can give us what kind of insights, I think is one of the big challenges many times.
And then yeah, really, not only continuously in using the same data source for the same insights for, you know, many, many years in order to really see some temporal tendencies, but having the people that are staying on the job for a long time, because those type of projects are so complex, that changes, even changes that are happening in the team that is dealing with data, if they're happening, you know, after one year or two years, and then someone who can, needs to get in and needs to acquire all that knowledge again. That in itself is a huge challenge for many destinations. So to attract and keep that knowledge within the house. And I mean, you know that is not even mentioning the biggest challenge of being able to do the analytics in the end and the visualisations first, and then doing the analytics with it. Because as we said before, visuals are good and they help to make some cases, but you only really get the insights and many insights you need, and you see patterns many times only if you start really correlating data, analysing it, and trying to connect the dots between many insights. And that itself is a, is a highly complex challenge.
I think that idea of continuity really hits the nail on their head because it kind of plays out both at the data level in order to invest and build over time, but also in terms of the human approach to that and building the capabilities, building the ownership, and seeing something really through many different stages of its evolution, which is certainly not the case for many destinations that perhaps are just not set up, not structured to be able to do that.
Well, we're going to be unpackaging quite a lot of this in the next episode where we're also gonna look at capabilities. So I think you've lined up a perfect segue for that. Birka, I think before we close off today's episode, I'm actually going to go with Birka's recommendation sheet, which sets out two possible endings for today.
One would be, you know, a really nice ending question, or the alternative, which I really like, which is a rapid-fire round of questions. But although Birka has kind of set this out for me in some of the notes, I think I'm going to play this right back to you guys, including Birka, because I really would love to have your perspective here. So let's kick things off as a quick, as a one phrase answer for each, and I'll start with you Birka, to ask you first of all, what is the one recommendation you'd have for destinations to then become more data-driven?
One recommendation. That is a good question. I think, the biggest, biggest recommendation that I've seen help destinations before they start on the journey is connecting with other destinations to see what they've done and really taking the time to do the homework of seeing what are our different options, who's in this game already, make connections and have the courage to have a really deep and even if it takes a long conversation internally, to see what's the right approach for you. I think if this is done correctly, then you have a good starting point for what's to come.
Arturo, what do you think?
For me, I think it's about understanding and prioritising your needs first, because otherwise, it would be like trying to build a house without the blueprint - it's not going to work, and is going to collapse eventually. So if you have that, your setup is on a very good path towards a data-driven set of mind.
Okay, next question. How do we take it up a level? So we've seen lots of great stuff, even brilliant stuff, but think big, you guys know what's possible, how can we really take things to the next level?
I would love to see, more opportunities for destinations and, you know, that's a whole different discussion where this opportunity is coming from, but more opportunities for destinations to test and trial different types of data sources, data insights and share those lessons learned. With the ability to fail. I don't think we have that culture today much in tourism, and I would love to see that. I think that would help a lot.
Lot. So we need more sandboxes by the sound of it to really test fail and learn from that. And that's absolutely fine. What about you, Arturo?
I think, besides what Birka already mentioned, I would have to say digital knowledge among destination management personnel. Why? Because sometimes when you work with destinations, yes, they want to get into big data and technology, but their team is not really equipped with the knowledge. So it's really hard from the beginning to communicate with them. So it's like, having a conversation in a foreign language for them, and they believe they understand and sometimes they don't. And it creates a lot of friction in how you can interact with the destination managers. So if the team who's gonna work in this project, they already have that digital knowledge, it's going to be a smooth process instead of, you know, something full with obstacles they need to address.
May, may I add to that, Nick?
You may, but you're kind of going over the one-phrase answer, but go ahead.
No, but I think there's a really important question connected to all of that, and that is if we really can expect destination management organisations to build all of that on their own in each of the destinations or if we need to think, you know, outside of the box, to have more knowledge that can go into different destinations and be shared knowledge between destinations because it is quite some work and it's quite some money and it's quite some time that destinations all need to do that.
And maybe kind of on the back of that, what do you think, where do you think failure is likely to crop up in that process? What's going to hold us back ultimately?
Uh, money and experts who can teach and enable the enablers. I think that's time as well.
Where have you seen failure emerge out?
Budget constraints, because sometimes they have a limited budget not considering what I just mentioned, that it is a long-term process, so you might have the budget for this period, but not for the next one, for the continuity of the next one. And for me, when it comes to destinations, the biggest challenge is the change of administration. I've seen failures every time an administration changes, and there's no continuity in the project.
I think that's a really key message that people need to absorb. And I think in particular, anybody who is close to that governmental or even political relationship when it comes to how tourism is governed, to really understand how the governance model needs to be able to find its own pathway independently in order to incorporate these priorities, in order to address the development needs, whether that's related to sustainability, whether that's related to the overall development of the destination, and to be able to pursue that with the big sea continuity, as you mentioned, Birka, which I think, you know, is a real fail point that destinations can trip up.
As you say, change of governments can become a huge obstacle, in fact, result in a huge amount of wasted resources and investments in perhaps sometimes really great projects that can never see it through. At the same time, the capabilities behind that or the consistency of building that data and building that pathway towards a more sustainable and data-driven approach as a DMO can all fall apart if you don't have continuity. So I think Birka, I kind of give that last words to you to perhaps sum up where you think destinations need to reconfigure themselves in order to prevent these risks from encroaching in their operational model.
Yeah, that's a good last one, Nick, because we can speak about this theoretically in terms of yes, we need continuity on the government side, on the governance side, we do need more knowledge on the human resource side. We do need more financing on the technical side and all of that. But the question really is, is that really realistic for what we have today and where we are going in the future? It is clear I think for everyone that if we want to leverage the insights that are out there and we have to be realistic in the years that are coming, we will have more and more insights that we need more commitment to go down that path and to be bolder in trying out different types of structures that work for it. So yeah, I guess that's the summary thought I guess I have on that one.
Yeah, certainly commitment and having a long-term view are the really key principles. And it's funny because we started out today talking about the data that we need, the data that we can tap into and how we can really incorporate that into our work. But in reality, the challenges are not always so much related to the data itself, but actually, our ability to manage, to have the right governance around that data and to find the right place for that within our structures in our systems so that it has a really clear pathway going forward. Thanks to both of you for this great discussion we've had today. Unfortunately, we're running out of time, so we need to close it off there. But Arturo, you've really helped us to get a different perspective. You shared some really interesting cases that we're really grateful for and I have no doubt we will connect again to perhaps dig into this even a little bit deeper and look at some of those cases that you told us about and try to understand.
Yeah, maybe explore a little bit more around how we even create failure for good, for example. So there's a lot more that we could dig into there. Birka, we're going to be back with you in the next episode where we'll look at human resources and capability, and I think this is certainly lined up a lot of thoughts ahead of that. So definitely I already have the questions burning away just there. So I'm looking forward to really exploring how we can address the capability and perhaps mindset and everything else that goes with that. Well, that closes off today's episode. Thank you very much, and we'll see you at the next episode.
Well, that brings us to the end of the second episode of Leading Tourism's transition, where we've been hearing from Arturo and Birka to have their perspectives on selecting the right data and content and how this forms a key part of driving towards a more sustainable future as an industry. Of course, we like to talk a lot about big data, but I think one of the takeaways that I have from listening to that conversation is just how important it's to select not the big data, but the right data, and to then think about how we can use that data in a meaningful way to gather the right insights and to synthesise that with other data that can help build a picture, help tell a story, help point us in the right direction, and set out a clear goal where we have strong measurement underpinned by data that explores and looks at the progress we're making against those indicators that we've set along that journey.
But of course, one of the things it also comes down to is capability. And this is what we'll be covering in the third, and sadly the last episode of this three-part series, where next week we'll be joined together with Michelle Novotny, the lead data analyst at Clever Places, where we'll be discussing, do we have enough pupil skills and knowledge within our industry? How do we attract and retain them? And we'll be looking more specifically at the skills needed, how to develop them and how to make sure that data is a skill set that is widely spread across our industry and it's helping us to meet those goals and objectives when it comes to sustainability. So join us in the next episode where we'll be jumping into that. Thank you for joining, and don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, whether it's Apple, Spotify, or perhaps even Google Podcasts. We would love you to join and subscribe and leave a review. If you've enjoyed listening to this episode.
Digital Tourism Think Tank
Independent Expert
Brain Analytics and Innovation
In this second episode, we'll be exploring the types of data that destinations should look at to become data-driven, and trying to understand how we should develop our projects internally to ensure our success when working with data to become more competitive.
In this second episode, we'll be exploring the types of data that destinations should look at to become data-driven, and trying to understand how we should develop our projects internally to ensure our success when working with data to become more competitive.
In this second episode, we'll be exploring the types of data that destinations should look at to become data-driven, and trying to understand how we should develop our projects internally to ensure our success when working with data to become more competitive.
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